Is ‘Bullhorn Guy’ Biblical?
Jeff Fuller October 19th, 2006
Todd Friel of Way of the Master Radio recently responded to Rob Bell’s Nooma video titled Bullhorn Guy with his own video. Think Bell was right or wrong in that video? In true WOTM style, Todd offers a biblical review and puts Rob’s method to the test. Will Rob’s methodology prove “effective” when compared with simply presenting the gospel? You be the judge:
EXCELLENT!
How do you find this stuff way before I do???
Must have something to do with the time zones!!!
THANK YOU!!! This is excellent! Thank you WOTM as well!
Good stuff Todd – and easily explained.
A friend of mine, Chris Brush, uploaded this video to YouTube abd Google Video today. If you have difficulty streaming, you may want to try one of these links:
Todd Friel’s Biblical Response to “Bullhorn Guy”
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8560032043053002550
And here it is in two parts on YouTube:
Todd Friel’s Biblical Response to “Bullhorn Guy” (PART 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZIZesl2My0
Todd Friel’s Biblical Response to “Bullhorn Guy” (PART 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJo34zVc-nQ
Great response to Rob Bell. I have been fighting the emerging church battle here on the campus I work with here in PA. I am a Campus Minister. I will most likely be showing this to my Friday night group.
Excellent Work!!
Good video. Only thing is that it doesn’t work as a critique Rob Bell’s “Bullhorn” video because of doesn’t do the very thing that Rob Bell talks about … he doesn’t stand and shout at people, he sits them down and talks to them one-to-one in a calm and reasoned way. So it’s more of an endorsement of what Rob Bell says than a criticism of it.
A great job of comparing apples to oranges.
You’ve completely missed the point in your “Dr. Love”, and you’ve done a beautiful job completely misrepesenting “Bullhorn Guy”. It’s about method, not message. Ray Comfort’s message/method can work short-term, but what follow-up is there? That is not to say there isn’t, but it isn’t emphasized. I could completely rip RC’s ‘method’ for what it doesn’t say in the same way you’ve misrepresented Bell’s message for what it didn’t say. Having had to walk past the ‘monster shouter’ street preachers on campus, though, I see them as the target of Bell’s criticism, and rightly so.
What Bell proposes is a whole lot more difficult, because it requires ongoing relationships, whose sole purpose isn’t “converson”.
I remember a girl in my high school who would “missionary date” – dating guys for the purpose of getting them to church and to accept Christ as their savior (admitting sin, accepting grace, all the points of salvation). Then, she’d break up with them, and move on to the next one, hoping that the previous one would now “fit in” with the rest of the body, cuz they didn’t need her help any more.
So, Bell’s video poses the question “do you lead with love, or do you lead with damnation?” The gospel is not a fire insurance policy, it is a way to live. So do you live like someone who lives the gospel – bringing people to know Christ and what he is like (which, as part of the process forces them to deal with their fallenness, to accept grace and walk anew), or do you live like a fire insurance salesman?
I know which one is harder, and that’s the one I’d choose…
Just in case it wasn’t clear, I was criticizing the “missionary dating” as similar to “converting” and then moving on…
Even Paul said he rejoiced in the gospel being preached by unbelieving antagonists. When you get to the point that you have so much time on your hands that a guy with a bullhorn bugs you enough that you make a critical video (whatever happened to free dialogue?), then you are exposed as self righteous and critical of methodology, which by the way, is something Bell has said people shouldn’t criticize him for. (FYI – I wrote this comment through a bullhorn!)
Chris,
Please help me out here:
What is the purpose of the Gospel? What did Christ die for?
Now I am assuming you will say Christ died so he can have relationship with us (forgive me if I put words in your mouth). I would argue first that Christ’s ultimate purpose in dying on the Cross was for His ultimate glory and secondly I would argue that in order for us to have a “relationship” with Christ conversion or I’d rather say regeneration must come first and be of primary importance…
Quote: What Bell proposes is a whole lot more difficult, because it requires ongoing relationships, whose sole purpose isn’t “converson”.
Chris L,
i think we all would commend your love for the lost. We love the lost as well, as I think Todd eloquates. Forgetting the method: If our purpose is to ‘make’ disciples ( Illustrated by Jesus in Matthew 28:19), preaching the gospel in repentance, and teaching them, we will make relationships, after we give them a clear Gospel message. We cannot presume that they or ourselves will live until tommorrow, if we did presume that, we would be boasting-so there is a sense of urgency- but we know that salvation comes from God and not our ourselves. We love, first of which is God, which is why we cannot hold in this Gospel message! This precious, powerful Gospel has saved us from our wretched sin in a powerful way, and we want to proclaim this message! This gospel breaks forth from my mouth, my fingers, and permeates all of our lives! Woe to us if we do not. Please, if we are wrong, pray for us. Have mercy and forgiveness for us, as Jesus would, for this manner of loving. As christians, show us love so that we might show the world our unity. If we are wrong, shall we not exalt this Lamb regardless, at our expense? I will gladly suffer body and soul to proclaim this King Christ! If it were so, I would subject myself to hell just in order to say, “Glory Be to the Lamb!”
Pray for us Chris, for indeed, this Gospel we are shouting is Life to those who are living, but death to those who are perishing. In the love of God, in Christ Jesus alone,
Steven
Chris L:
Just on your follow-up comment:
What about Phillip and the Eunuch? The worst case of follow-up I’ve ever seen.
The point is, we don’t NEED to have follow-up at all. God is quite able to get a true believer into a Bible-believing church. A person who truly repented and trusted Christ would desire to find fellowship, and would not need follow-up.
—
Henry:
The point of the video is not to be self-righteous and critical – but to be vicarious defenders of the Gospel that was delivered once for all time to the saints, and to never ever let it get watered down. Right now in Christen-dom there is a serious watering down of all aspects of the Gospel, and Rob Bell’s points in Bullhorn are perfect examples of this watering down.
We can’t let the precious Gospel get altered! No need for this relevant stuff.. we can continue to preach the Gospel the same way it was done ages ago. It’s safe to say that God is smart enough to create a “methodology” that would work for all time, all people, and any setting. And that he did! Law to the proud, Grace to the humble.
God bless you guys!
-Chris
Chris – my criticism was of Bell, the poster boy of watering down the gospel. Sorry I wasn’t clear.
The bullhorn method might not be the most effective, but in the shadow of John the Baptist his boldness should convict us of our sometimes timidity!
Steven,
I guess my point wasn’t so much a criticism of your method (I don’t know what follow-up you’ve got), but that it wasn’t really a response to the message of ‘Bullhorn Guy’. From watching your video (and Hell’s Best Kept Secret), I didn’t really take away from it that your ‘method’ was as much the target of Bell as that of the the ‘monster shouters’ (what we called them on campus, in ref. to a character from The Stand) on campuses and some street corners who I have heard use lots and lots of ‘you’re all [homosexual term deleted] and going to hell’ with no personal dialog.
Henry,
Bell’s message to those guys wasn’t “You’re sinning in what you’re doing”, it was “I don’t think what you’re doing is working, and it’s making the job harder for Christians who are in these peoples’ lives day-in and day-out.” Having listened to a number of sermons and such from Bell now, I don’t hear a ‘watered-down’ gospel from him at all, but a solid one which includes a call to action on being salt and light, both temporally and eternally.
Chris,
Yes, we’re to ‘make disciples’ – and a disciple isn’t someone who wants to know what their rabbi knows, it is someone who wants to be what their rabbi is. Paul tried both methods – first with a whirlwind tour through Galatia, and then with prolonged stops in Ephesus and Corinth – both places where he was the most effective at making disciples who could then go out and make more disciples.
I think there’s room for both Ray Comforts and Rob Bells in the kingdom. RC’s tend to be those tossing the seeds out on the ground, and the RB’s tend to be the ones to help them grow and produce fruit, if God so desires. Unfortunately, though, there are then a lot of Christians who then compete with Satan at choking out the growing plants they would prefer weren’t in their version of the kingdom.
Henry,
Ah I’m very sorry. I take back my comments! After reading your post a second you – YOU WERE CLEAR! It was my mistake for reading too quickly
I thank each and every person for clicking over to our site. I want to let you know that we aren’t representatives for WOTM or Todd Friel, but we love his radio show and the resources that are produced from WOTM. With that point, we cannot speak for Todd, Ray, Rob, or anyone else other than ourselves.
If you’d like to contact Todd Friel or someone at WOTM please click here:
http://www.wayofthemasterradio.com/contact.shtml
If you would like to contact Rob Bell or someone at Mars Hill you can click here:
http://www.mhbcmi.org/contact.php
We do value your opinions so you are welcome to continue expressing them here! Again, thanks for visitng The Reformed Evangelist!
I think Christians should be cautious about any form of “street preaching.” We may be getting in front of the Holy Spirit to convict some unregenerate people, and end up leaving them confused. We who have the Truth of God in us still need to be careful that we are not purpose driven rather than Spirit led. Both Bell’s and this attempt at conversion smack of man’s vain imagination.
So tell me, George, how do you do it? Getting in front of the Holy Spirit? What if the Holy Spirit is what is convicting you to street preach? If Christians are cautious about street preaching, they better be cautious about any kind of preaching, the only difference is the venue.
Jim,
That is correct. It applies to any kind of preaching.
[...] But this criticism seems to miss the point entirely (HT: Tim Challies). Mr. Bell has a featurette called Bullhorn Guy (gist of the script is here) in which he expresses his dislike for the kind of street preacher who, using a bullhorn, urges passers-by to repent lest they be judged and burn in hell for eternity. He (Bell) asks the questions: “How do you feel about people like Bullhorn Guy?”; “Are people like Bullhorn Guy hurting the perception people have of Jesus?”. My answers: “Yucky” and “Yes”. (see this fine essay by our young friend Clay – He puts it really well) [...]
You missed the point, George. If you won’t speak out for Christ on the streets, you probably won’t speak out anywhere.
I agree with Jim. And Chris Bush.
Somehow, “he who will not pick up his latte and follow Me in non-offensive friendship evangelism…” doesn’t seem the right way to go. Christians are guaranteed tribulation, temptation and persecution. Jesus preached sin, Hell, repentance and faith. He preached he was the Son of God, that he was God Himself. He was crucified for it. He also told us that the servant is not greater than the Master and we should not expect better treatment than He.
By the way, the Gospel IS offensive to the self-righteous. If you try to make it a warm-fuzzy, people will not understand their desperate need for a Savior. Everyone thinks they are good. We are all condemned sinners unable to work our way to Heaven, which is revolting to the unregenerate. They want to do just about anything but bend their knee to Jesus Christ. If we don’t tell it straight , there WILL be false conversions and people in Hell who thought they were saved. I understand some of this because I was one of the falsely converted for about 38 years.
I think some of the folks who have a strong negative reaction to someone else speaking with conviction about things like sin, Hell, repentance, conversion, etc. need to take a close look at why they feel that way. I was a good church-going dude who found folks who used these words offensive. The real problem was that in my innermost being I was unregenerate and the MESSAGE they preached was offending me. I critcized their method as a salve to my conscience, to try to make myself feel better about turning a deaf ear to their content. Please examine yourself.
Superdave,
Individual Christians are not guaranteed persecution – though the Christian community is (see this link before you quote John 15:20 or a symoptic equivalent, please). Also, not every eschatologic view sees ‘tribulation’ as imminent. However, Jesus did preach a message of personal imminency, which is why we are to preach the gospel.
Giving a message that is ‘offensive’ is completely separate from being offensive and rude. Shouting “You’re all unregenerate f*gs and you’re dying and going to hell” into a bullhorn to complete strangers on a campus mall or a street corner is rude and offensive behavior – independent of ‘message’.
You said, “If we don’t tell it straight , there WILL be false conversions and people in Hell who thought they were saved. ” Well, true, but if you convict someone on the street with the Ray Comfort message but don’t really give a lick about their life apart from an eternal fire insurance policy, you haven’t done anything for them, either. Being a daily part of someone’s life and allowing the Spirit to bring them to truly know Christ because His followers reflect His image – and carry His message – will take longer and be harder to do – ANYTHING with a level of quality does take longer and tends to be more difficult. “But time is short and it is urgent” you might say. “Then we should start yesterday,” I say. In the ‘Bullhorn Guy’ video, Bell asks the question “If we love somebody with an agenda, is it really love?” Well, no, it’s not. If the reason you’re showing interest in me is to “save” me, then you’re just marketing fire insurance. If the reason you love me is because you want to be just like your rabbi, who said to love your neighbor as yourself, then I will want to know more about your rabbi, and it is more likely I will come to know him and continue to want to know more about him and become more like Him, as well…
You also said: “The real problem was that in my innermost being I was unregenerate and the MESSAGE they preached was offending me.”
That very well may have been you, but the ‘monster shouters’ I’m familiar with were offensive, regardless of their message, and Bells’ message is completely relevant to the way they reflect on Christianity.
Jim,
You said “If you won’t speak out for Christ on the streets, you probably won’t speak out anywhere.”
Baloney.
It’s not an either-or proposition (as posed in the response to Bullhorn guy). You wouldn’t find me on a street corner, but you would probably find me at a lunch table – with people I know and love from my workplace who still do not know Christ – talking about many of the same things the Ray Comfort guys do, but also finding ways to be like Christ rather than only talk about him with an agenda.
We just cannot seem to be content to touch a Living Christ. We insist on having some formula.
Agustine wasn’t content without a formula. Luther was not content without a formula. Real Christians abide in Christ, not in any denominatiional church house, however large or small.
George,
The only person who defines what a “real Christian” is, is Christ, himself. Whether it is you, or me, or someone else, looking down our noses because someone else ‘isn’t doing it right’ (as defined by us) is arrogant and unloving.
All formulas and methods are just that – man-made formulas and methods which we use to try to understand what God expects of us as individuals and as a people. Only the extreme fatalistic or hyper-Calvinists are so legalistic in their beliefs that they suck all free will aside to make execution of the Great Commission immaterial.
The discussion here is, admittedly, over methods. Specifically, it is a group of folks (open street preachers) who have taken offense at someone else’s criticism of a segment of their population (the ‘monster shouters’, aka ‘Bullhorn Guys’). We are commanded to go out and spread the gospel, making disciples of all nations. That is no formula – that is the words of the resurrected Christ, and you’d be hard pressed to refute them…
Also, just for the record, (as I noted above) – Bell doesn’t condemn the ‘monster shouters’ as being sinful or formulaic – he just makes some observations that their ‘method’ doesn’t seem to be all that effective, and it is making spreading the gospel harder on the rest of us, because the world tends to use the fringe to paint the whole.
Chris L. – You said “Bell asks the question “If we love somebody with an agenda, is it really love?” Well, no, it’s not. If the reason you’re showing interest in me is to “save” me, then you’re just marketing fire insurance.”
Jn.3:16 clearly shows God had an agenda, to save whosever believeth from perishing. Can you not see that you have taken humanism and made it an end, not a means. Providing an escape from the lake of fire, not matter how antiquated that sounds, was and is the primary message of the gospel.
Today you have people “accepting Jesus” to get financial help, healing, marriage restoration, and to become a success. Anyone who does not see that eternal life is the ultimate gift inherant in Jesus Christ is a conduit to help transition the gospel from the eternal to the temporal, no matter how well meanig.
I love this video that Todd and the guys at WOTMR have made. You know, I’m not an anti-Rob Bell guy but I just cannot help but recognize that this fellas approach to evangelism is totally and utterly UNBIBLICAL. When it comes down to it, there is no such instruction given in the scriptures to form a relationship with someone, live like a Christian and then over time they will get saved through osmosis. Not only is that approach not supported by the scripture but it is just plain crazy! Christian’s are commissioned to preach the gospel (Matt. 28:18, Mk. 15:16) that means we have a mission: we are to preach (i.e. proclaim -implying speaking) the whole counsel of God, which is: law to the proud, grace to the humble. Anything less than this is just plain ubiblical, regardless of what we may think, that includes Rob Bell. Listening to someone’s story, hopes and dreams doesn’t help them escape the wrath to come. If we claim that we are doing this wonderful unoffensive approach out love for the lost and we forget to tell them how they have sinned against God and deserve nothing more or less than His holy wrath , and how despite the fact that we deserve judgment God sent Christ to save us, we have become hypocrites and are claiming a false compassion that is motivated by fear. I respect a man of God more who will stand on a street corner or college campus and REASON with sinners to repent and be CONVERTED than a so called “loving” person who would sit on a bench and criticize the one taking some kind of action. According to the scriptures, that’s real compassion (Rom. 1:14-17, 1 Co. 9:16, 2 Co. 5:11,19). Love does not sit in passivity while sinners sink down into hell. “Grace is love that cares, and stoops and RESCUES.” -John R.W. Stott
Chris L,
I agree with your position here, especially the “fire insurance” part. I see that I didn’t explain myself very well, because I certainly believe in the responsibility of anyone who would be a disciple of Christ, to spread the Gospel Word; but to be cautious about using the Old Man nature, or vain imagination, in spreading the Word. We don’t need fire insurance. We need LIFE insurance…and even God Himself does not try to cram that down our throats.
CBX,
I think we should ask: What motivates our desire to believe in Christ? Is it fear of the future, or a desire to be a new person in Christ in us? Look at Luke 3: 7b. “Who warned you to flee God’s judgment?” John knew, as Jesus knew, that many people wanted to be baptized just so they could escape eternal punishment, but who would still not turn to God for salvation. John and Jesus both had harsh words for these people. God values transformation above reformation above ritual. Our desire should be not only admitting we are dead in sin, but that we also desire a new life in Christ in us. Repentance is more than just a vaccination against possible disaster.
You said,
“Listening to someone’s story, hopes and dreams doesn’t help them escape the wrath to come.” I agree with this statement, but we need to tell them the rest of the story…not just about the wrath to come.
George,
I totally agree with you. To come to Christ out of a fear of judgment is to come with impure motives. We should come not because we are afraid of hell, but rather because God was so kind to save us from hell. It is for the glory of Christ, for the exaltation of His Name and Grace. I do think, however, that the reality of sinners being cast into hell should motivate us as Christians to seek and save the lost. How can we claim to love people and yet avoid mentioning the fact that there is a real hell with real people in it who will be there for all eternity. I believe after we have taken them through the law and they have seen their sin and that they’re deserving of hell we should then bring glory to God by showing them His amazing grace in the gospel. Our desire to come to Christ should be motivated by seeing how wonderful, beautiful and kind He has been to wicked, hell deserving sinners and our desire to see sinners saved should be motivated by the fact that death could come upon them at any moment and they will be lost forever. But it all ultimately boils down to the Glory of God and “that the Lamb that was slain may receive the full reward for His suffering”.
CBX,
I agree with some of your statements, but you’ve missed my point and, I think, Bell’s. You said:
However, the Great Commission says:
The act of making disciples requires a relationship – one in which one person learns how it is to live as a Christian from another person who has already learned as a disciple, themself. Notice that this uses the word “teach” – not “preach” – which also requires an intimate relationship, when viewed in context. This is not to say we are not commanded to “preach” – we are – but are we to neglect one for the other?
Also, notice I didn’t say that people would be saved “through osmosis” – I said that a different setting one, based what is most appropriate in the relationship – would bring someone to the knowledge of Christ and His salvation.
Henry, find me an example of where Jesus or one of his disciples used the fear of hell as the tool for bringing people to know Christ and to become his disciple.
Chris L,
You said:
“Having listened to a number of sermons and such from Bell now, I don’t hear a ‘watered-down’ gospel from him at all, but a solid one which includes a call to action on being salt and light, both temporally and eternally.”
Would you mind pointing me to one of those messages where Rob Bell lays out the gospel? I’ve only listened to a few of his messages so I don’t have much authority on his “gospel.” But, the ones I listened to included several stories and very little Scripture (thus, no gospel). One of the messages I listened to was on a Sunday where they took communion. It would’ve been a perfect opportunity to present the gospel (especially since unbelievers should be discouraged from partaking).
I know Rob means well but, I think he only makes it harder for the rest of us Christians who refuse to omit words like sin, hell, and judgment from the gospel.
Brad,
I don’t know if they’re still online, but there was at least one sermon which was pulled directly from the synoptics with a more ‘traditiona’ gospel message just prior to the Exodus series back in June on the mhbci site.
Also, because of the setup at Mars Hill, small groups tend to go through gospel, apologetics & basics, whereas their weekly gatherings tend to be teaching (as opposed to ‘preaching’) directly from biblical texts. I visited MH while on vacation back in August, and talked to one of the elders out in their informational area, where he gave me a bit out the outlay of the church – which is organized into small groups laid out regionally in the Grand Rapids area, with pastors over each region. These pastors/elders are responsible for a whole lot more than their traditional counterparts. Their weekend services are not really geared to ’seekers’, though they have certain Sundays which are more ‘basics’ oriented. I’ve only been paying attention to the online sermons & stuff since April, so you’d probably be better off writing to them directly.
[As for communion, I attend a Restoration Movement (non-denominational) church, which has been in existence 150+ years, and we don't verbally discourage unbelievers from partaking in communion, which we serve each week. There is a statement explaining the meaning of the emblems and the Lord's Supper in our teaching hand-out.
The week we were at Mars Hill, one of the elders got up and went through most of their weekly 'hand-out', which included a lot of information on the small groups, current series & activities, and general explanations of their church - like the 'joy boxes', where tithes and offerings are collected, rather than 'passing the plate'. Who knows what folks were told before the recorded sermon or in the handouts?]
You said
Somehow, I doubt that. Standing on the street telling people they’re going to hell ain’t that hard. Taking the time to make disciples, is, though…
Chris L,
I appreciate your response and I see your point, however in my initial comment I was responding directly to Rob Bell’s video. I’ve only briefly looked over your previous comments. I agree that discipleship means having a relationship with someone and instructing them in the way. My original comment was in respect to evangelism and the way the Bible instructs us to do it. Rob Bell’s Bullhorn guy is criticizing the message of sin, righteousness and judgment to come. He’s referring to an actual form of evangelism that is aimed at converting sinners in order to see them saved and delivered from God’s judgment. Discipleship is a post conversion experience where the sinner who has repented and trusted in Christ then begins to learn of and come to know the Lord He has trusted in. I’m saying, that it is unscriptural to teach that just by loving people without actually sharing the gospel message with them is going to cause them to want to be a Christian. Why would they? To be happier? I don’t think so. Unless a man has come to see himself as the radically depraved sinner he is he will not seek a savior. The Bible teaches us that we are to first proclaim (preach -or you could even say “teach transgressors in the way”) the gospel and then teach them all that He has commanded us to do (making them disciples), IF they repent and trust in Christ (Matt. 28:18-20). In order for one to be made a disciple, he must first come to God on His terms. Otherwise, we would be casting our pearls before swine.
You know what Chris L., this is a prime example of how I will quote you Scriptures from the gospels, that are replete with numerous other instances, that use the fear of hell and missing heaven as a “tool” (as you put it, I say it is just truth) to present Christ to lost people, and you will discount them.
Just look no further then the sermon on the mount.
Matt.5:20, Matt.5:22, Matt.5:29-30, Matt.7:13-14, Matt.7:20, Matt.7:21-23.
These are just a mere few of the legions of verses from the mouth of Jesus Himself that made ouvert and subliminal references to eternity and its consequences. And for people to imply that Jesus presented a cultural and earthly gospel is so inaccurate it almost seems intentional.
Good video. One comment regarding his quoting of Rob Bell saying, “It seems that all you’re trying to do is convert people.”
He could have also answered that with:
“Actually no, the Holy Spirit is the one who converts. What “we’re trying to do” is preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, something conspicuously absent from Numa videos.”
The rest of what is said in the video is great.
Oh what a piece of cheese.
Did anyone here actually watch Rob Bell’s Nooma? This guy in this video doesn’t even reflect who or what Rob Bell was talking about in his video. He was having conversations just like those emergent people advocate.
Congratulations, you just strengthened Rob Bell’s argument. You all can reach me at pkrevbro@yahoo.com
Peace,
Scott
Henry,
First, you misunderstand the ‘kingdom of heaven’ – representing it only as something that happens when one has died. The “kingdom of heaven” (actually a metaphor for “kingdom of God”, because they would not speak his name) begins temporally. You have continually ignored this, completely misrepresenting Jesus’ message.
Second, hell was used specifically addressing certain behaviors – not as a way of selling fire insurance to the unsaved. Not one of the times Jesus mentions ‘hell’ (actually gahenna – the Jerusalem town dump) does he do so to a crowd of ‘common folk’. He does so when teaching his disciples or when attacking the religious authorities. He didn’t use it as a ‘conversion tool’.
Yes, Jesus had a message of imminence for individuals, but he had one of the ‘kingdom of heaven’ for his people – which would begin when they accepted his authority, and would continue on into eternite.
On shavuot, Peter convicted the people, and in doing so, what did he tell them?
Hmmmm. Sounds like, at the very least, he’s dealing with something temporal here – not something in the future, after death.
When we only emphasize the eternal, we miss half of the message. Not a message of health and wealth, but a message of being salt and light – of being just like Jesus to those who meet us, regardless of whether they accept him or not…
Exactly as I predicted.
Sorry, Henry, but you’re just plain wrong on this one. What is the message of the parable(s) of the talents? What is it about Jesus’ message applying to first to the temporal and then the eternal that strikes you so “wrongly”? Is the gospel about life or death? Is “salt and light” just some figurative thing that applies only to concepts and salvation of the spirit and not to bringing compassion and Jesus (literally “God’s Salvation”) to our neighbor here, today?
[...] Todd Friel of Way of the Master Radio recently responded to Rob Bell’s Nooma video titled Bullhorn Guy with his own video. Think Bell was right or wrong in that video? In true WOTM style, Todd offers a biblical review and puts Rob’s method to the test. Will Rob’s methodology prove “effective” when compared with simply presenting the gospel? You be the judge: Video: Todd Friel – Bullhorn Response (HT: Reformed Evangelist) Tags [...]
[...] Now, the Reformed Evangelist links to a video response to the ‘Bullhorn Guy’ video by Way of the Master. I encourage you to check it out. The video suggests a novel concept in American Christianity–’relational’ evangelism in which you share the gospel on the front end of the relationship rather than waiting for months (or years) before you have built the proper credibility to speak the gospel into their life. [...]
[...] This site links to a video from Way of the Master Radio host Todd Friel demonstrating a biblical approach to evangelism. He is responding to Rob Bell’s Bullhorn Guy video, which I have not seen, though I am somewhat familiar with Bell. My older two children and I watched the Friel video and thought it quite good. [...]
I’ve been reading through alot of comments. I’ve noticed that no one is actually adressing open-air preaching. Everyone is set on the methodology. Is open air preaching Biblical. The anwer purely and simply is yes. Sermont on the mount, Mars Hill, etc. Historically it has been used for thousands of years. Stephen did when he was being stoned, George Whitefield, John Wesley, Charles Spurgeon. Are you going to say that what they did was not effective? Men of God have been doing this for years. Sin, Hell, repentance, Judgement, are all Biblical words that are necessary for someone to understand grace and mercy. The whole counsel of God must be presented. In the words of Johny Wesley, preach 90% Law 10% grace. God bless, be a berean and study the Scriptures.
Andrew F,
Great Point! While Todd’s video response may lack video of him open air preaching, Todd definitely is an advocate of street preaching. I think he addresses that to a little bit in this video. We address it elsewhere on this website.
Thanks for your comment!
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[...] Bull: Has Rob Bell met his match? Find out here as Dr. Love gets challenged by Dr. Reason. Also, check out fillup.org for some great comments on the infamous “bullhorn guy.” (HT: Reformed Evangelist) [...]
“If we love somebody with an agenda, is it really love?” This is Bell’s issue with OA preaching? On the contrary, this is my issue with relationship evangelism. I’m going to be your friend and then once I gain your trust I’m going to tell you my real agenda! Seems hypocritcal to me.
I saw the nooma video a while back, and I understand the frustration with the bullhorn guy. I don’t think it’s saying street preaching is wrong, but as Chris L (and the video) point out–is it effective? I see people all the time preaching on the street….I don’t really see anyone stop and listen to them, though….I see a lot of people just continue walking and think nothing of it. (I know you will probably say this is the persons fault and the preacher did his job..the rest is up to God-and that is a valid point) I know when I hear these people preaching on the street, it seems most people around get defensive and think “You don’t know me”. Many think it is arrogant for someone to assume stuff about you when they don’t even know you. However, if you know the person or are willing to have a personal conversation it is very different. As Chris L. points out, I think that is the difference between the bullhorn guy that Rob Bell depicts in his video vs. the person in the above video – that personal aspect, sitting down one-on-one.
Seems there is some division on here. We are all on the same team, the same body. Let’s remember that. It takes different approaches to reach different types of people. There’s not one right way.
So I guess my bottom line is this: Is anyone listening? If so, great. If not, maybe there is a better method.
(I hope all that rambling made sense…it’s getting late here)
In Christ,
Greg
So what should it be? Milk before meat or meat before milk. Pretty sure it’s not milk before cookies. Whether preached or teached your passion for the savior should be evident. If your doctrine is accurate and your actions reflect truth in love- you’re probably ok. Words like Sin, Hell, repentance, Judgement should never be conveniently left out Like the bumper sticker says, “Honk if you love Jesus”
In reexamining my past post I saw an error. Not punctuation or grammar, there were plenty of those. What I refer to is “milk before meat or meat before milk:” I thought how obvious it is that meat before milk could never be considered as a option as it defies logic, however, check out Paul’s commentary on what spiritual milk is comprised of…
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Hbr 5:11 There is so much more we would like to say about this. But you don’t seem to listen, so it’s hard to make you understand. 12 You have been Christians a long time now, and you ought to be teaching others. Instead, you need someone to teach you again the basic things a beginner must learn about the Scriptures.* You are like babies who drink only milk and cannot eat solid food. 13 And a person who is living on milk isn’t very far along in the Christian life and doesn’t know much about doing what is right. 14 Solid food is for those who are mature, who have trained themselves to recognize the difference between right and wrong and then do what is right. Hbr 6:1 So let us stop going over the basics of Christianity* again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don’t need to start all over again with the importance of turning away from evil deeds and placing our faith in God. 2 You don’t need further instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding.
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Per Paul spiritual milk includes eternal judgement et al. Using Paul’s example, spiritual meat means attempting to grasp the cross and his blood. As humans we never want to accept reality, we want the good news first. Teach or preach but include truth in love. Nobody on this blog endorses hate speech. Any takers?
In response to Greg M, People do stop and listen many times. Some are very humble and even appreciative, coming up afterwards to thank us. We’ve recently even had several instances of people dropping to their knees weeping in repentance. Remember 1 Cor 1:21 and 1 Cor 2:1-5. There is nothing new under the sun including Bell’s philosophy. It is the same mindset that hit the church around the turn of the century with liberalism. Liberals wanted to focus only on love and humanity not on the whole counsel of God. But God honors His word when we honor Him with faithful proclamation of the gospel. Also, don’t judgethe response to OA preaching by what you are seeing. God is working in many of the hearts of those hearing and making the seed grow.
I have to agree – many people stop and listen….
Judge for yourself…. The word is preached and people stop and hear….
http://www.paulkaiser.net/videosgnn.html
I have to think that we as Christians have reached a new low when preachers feel that they have to make videos to make fun of other people. We are supposed to be different from the rest of the world, when this looks like something that could be on some MTV show where they just make fun of each other. Pretty soon they will be playing this video on 20/20 and talking how the church today can’t get along. Seriously, grow up people… stop making videos making fun of other preachers and start making disciples.
Brian,
You said
You are assuming with ‘once you’re my friend then I’m going to tell you my agenda’ that there IS an agenda. Let me explain:
I have worked as a volunteer in the past with The Legacy, a ministry that works with Native American kids on the Reservations, teaching art and music. Formed by friends and family of Rich Mullins after his death in 1997, volunteers take on the philosophy that Rich espoused in his work with kids on the res:
“I’m going to teach you how to play the guitar. While I’m here, I’m going to tell you about Jesus. Regardless of whether you choose to believe or accept what I have to tell you, I am still going to teach you how to play the guitar.”
While Rich was not Franciscan (he came from a non-denominational background with a little bit of Quaker influence), he also liked St. Francis’ quote: “Go out into the world and preach the gospel. Use words, if necessary.”
No, you can’t just “love somebody into the kingdom”, but you do have a choice to lead with love or to lead with fear. If my “agenda” is to make disciples, that requires relationships – and it will most likely require ongoing relationships with people who have not yet (and may not ever) accept the gospel. At that point, though, I don’t think that the term ‘agenda’ applies anymore…
This video and its critique is just laughable…
1. If all you experience of Rob Bell is his “Bullhorn Guy” video, then you’re not getting his full message. You guys do know that he preached his way through Leviticus for the first year that Mars Hill was in existence, right? Have you listened to his messages online? Lots and lots of gospel of Jesus Christ.
2. I just saw his interactions with people where he was supposedly interacting the way Rob Bell would. Yeah, right. That’s not at all what Rob Bell is talking about. And then when he presents his alternative method of sharing the gospel, he doesn’t do the bullhorn thing at all! He has a gentle, respectful conversation! That’s not what Rob Bell is talking about, either!
In short, I don’t see any way in which this video is actually responding the the message of Rob Bell or the message of his “Bullhorn Guy” NOOMA video. Nice try, though.
C’mon Rob Bell you can’t have it both ways, only God can have it both ways—Rob, If your sole point was that the Bullhorn Guy was yelling racial, sexual slurs etc. with an underlying message of repentance then you have made your point. Yes Robby, nobody wants an evil Bullhorn Guy representing Jesus (contradictory isn’t it). Anyhow, if you have a problem with someone yelling “REPENT YE, AND BELIEVE IN THE GOSPEL”(Mark 1:15) Those words are from your Father and who are you to question your Father? There are good and evil Bullhorn Guy’s, we accept the good and pray for the lost. Notice I said pray for the lost and not upon. In my opinion Rob has broad brushed everyone through his heterodoxical doctrine. Jesus is the only true extremist- EXTREME TRUTH (never changing)—every other extremist doctrine is a knockoff/ look-alike. Rob Bell is as much of a bookend of Christianity as the Evil Bullhorn Guy he despises-both extremists. Chris L, How about a reality television show where a “lost” Bullhorn Guy (we’ll call him Saul) is matched with a “found” Bullhorn Guy (we’ll call him Paul) in a half hour cage match. Then us,as mere mortals, can phone in ourcritique/judgement vote. Rob Bell can referree with a tiny inconspicuous Bull Horn and scold the bad Bull Horn Guy (whomever doesn’t match his self created doctrine). Should you really fight absurdity with more adsurdity or save your words.
The Bible in its entirety calls us to be b-a-l-a-n-c-e-d! “REPENT YE, AND BELIEVE IN THE GOSPEL” I wish could have been walking by on the street when Jesus said it and had the good sense to consider it.
Both J.T.B and Jesus preached repentance——Rob, go argue with them and leave us to do the work we have been commissioned to do. God Bless the Bullhorn Guy.
Peace Out-
I posted this as an earlier comment, but am repeating it to further stress the point:
I thank each and every person for clicking over to our site. I want to let you know that the contributors to The Reformed Evangelist aren’t representatives for WOTM or Todd Friel, but we love his radio show and the resources that are produced from WOTM. With that point, we cannot speak for Todd, Ray, Rob, or anyone else other than ourselves.
If you’d like to contact Todd Friel or someone at WOTM please click here:
http://www.wayofthemasterradio.com/contact.shtml
If you would like to contact Rob Bell or someone at Mars Hill you can click here:
http://www.mhbcmi.org/contact.php
We do value your opinions so you are welcome to continue expressing them here! Again, thanks for visitng The Reformed Evangelist!
All truth and no love is brutality, but all love and no truth is hypocrisy. Only God can be 100%truth and 100%love, and only God can be 100%man and 100%God. Because we finite the best we can do is 50%love and 50%truth. If we can’t balance and restrain ourselves we become unbalanced extremists. Jesus Christ was the only legitimate extremist. Rob Bell critique of the BHG is too much judgment in love w/o truth and the BHG of Rob Bell’s imagination would scream too much judgement in truth w/o love. Who fired the first shot? The Hatfields of Love or the McCoys of Truth. Mat 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? When you become a zealot on either end of the spectrum—it’s a long road…
Is Rob Bell firing on people in the name of Love-YES, Is the extremist BHG firing on people in the name of Truth-YES. People who chose to live in extremes make perfect arguments for us to be rational followers of Jesus Christ. We need to put our feelings aside and follow the Word. We have all judged to harshly in Love, we have all judged to harshly in Truth—God help us! Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. AMEN
ALL FOR ONCE,
Put you on a little stool, hand you a bullhorn, add the gospel to your message, and you’d make a wonderful open air preacher!
Thanks for your comments. We appreciate what you’ve had to share with us and our readers.
– Jeff
Jesus used different ‘methods’ at different times and with different people.
With Zaccheus, he sat down and had some lunch with him, showing the poor little guy respect and love he’d never encountered (Dr Love?) By the end of his time there, Zach was ready more than make up for his wrongs with people, and with God.
To the religious leaders, those who already knew the teachings of God, but didn’t understand or act on them, he was relentlessly harsh, calling them children of the devil, challenging them and giving them their ultimatum. As much as this got up their noses, many came to believe through this too (Dr Reason)
(On a slightly more cynical note, Todds volunteers all seemed to be white (bar one) middle class american young males – very niche)
A kingdom divided amongst itself will fall, may all of you come to realise that in someone elses experience and surrounding society, a different ‘method’ to yours might be more effective and better recieved.
For further reading on my point, see Mark 9:33-41
Felix wrote: “…may all of you come to realise that in someone elses experience and surrounding society, a different ‘method’ to yours might be more effective and better recieved.”
The interesting thing is that Todd isn’t challenging the effectiveness of Rob’s method or video… he’s challenging whether or not what Rob said in the ‘Bullhorn Guy’ NOOMA is Biblical.
The mantra of POMO’s regarding Zaccheus and Mary-Martha are redundant. They jump into scripture when it suits them and jump out of scripture when it suits them. If they feel the bible is in error then why do they quote it at all. My church has POMO and Emergent/Emerging leanings and I am ok w/ that-even though I don’t agree w/ most all of it. We are all the fabric of God. Whether POMO, EC, orthodox, evangelical etc-etc., we create His mosaic-eyes, ears, etc. I have found the “conversation” crowd very limiting in their treatment of anyone who views the bible as inerrant. In fact, once they (EC/POMOS) find out that your views are orthodox (whatever that means anymore) they shut you down. Which is exactly what they (EC) claim should not be done. I think it’s hypocritical and contrary to what they insist they are against. I think they are devisive (unfortunately we are all devisive in our flesh) while claimiing to be inclusive. We all need to be more introspective and not narrow. Instead of noting the fact that the bible convicts us of our sin and need for a Saviour–they(EC) turn the tables and find what they view as loopholes (as if the bible was US tax code) to justify the sin. That is not the bible I know. They will compare gospels of Apostles showing Judas guts bursting vs. hanging. etc-etc. This creates a circular argument -man made vs. sola scriptura. I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. As far as 2000 years of evangelicalism being a failure as Rob points out, again I disagree. Maybe it’s not the way I would of painted the process, or how Rob would have painted the process–The Lord is sovereign and his plan is happening just the way he sees fit. Don’t think for a minute we control His plan. His ways are not our ways.
Rob Bell is not in my church anymore and I thank God for that. Did I get my way or His way? I dunno? Asking God questions is OK w/ me but a nonstop questioning of him w/o finding any Truth, WHAT UP W/ THAT. Maybe we just don’t like HIS answers.
Peace out,
AFO/OFA
Thank you from Belgium, we were shown the Nooma Bullhorn video in a youthleaders training day, and I had serious questins about it…
Love, Johan Menheere, Belgium
ALL FOR ONCE / ONCE FOR ALLon 14 Feb 2007 at 2:39 pm stated: “Asking God questions is OK w/ me but a nonstop questioning of him w/o finding any Truth, WHAT UP W/ THAT. Maybe we just don’t like HIS answers.”
Well put, I dont think God minds us asking questions, thats why He gave us a book full of answers: The Bible. Innerrent, complete.
Proverbs 1:20
Wisdom cries aloud in the street,in the markets she raises her voice; 21 at the head of the noisy streets she cries out;at the entrance of the city gates she speaks: 22 How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple?How long will scoffers delight in their scoffingand fools hate knowledge? 23 If you turn at my reproof,behold, I will pour out my spirit to you;I will make my words known to you.
I just think it’s funny/lame how Friel completely missed the point of “Bullhorn”…it’s not a video abour evangelism…it’s a video about loving others. To assume that, because Bell talks about loving others without ever mentioning addressing sin and repentance and salvation, Bell is encouraging a soft method of evangelism is laughable… He is simply using “bullhorn guy” to show one very real and extreme way that “Christians” do NOT show love to others.
And, I especially love how Friel tries to emphasize his “point” by using two “methods” of evangelism, neither of which Bell ever mentioned in the video.
From the Nooma website, describing the purpose of “Bullhorn”…
“God loves everyone, so a Christian should, too. In fact, Jesus said that the most important thing in life is to love God with everything we’ve got and love others the same way. But it’s not always easy to love everyone around us, is it? Sometimes we strongly disagree with other people’s political views, religious beliefs, behaviors, or something else, and it makes it hard to love them when we feel like we’re right and they’re very wrong. But Jesus doesn’t separate loving God and loving others. So maybe the best way for us to show our love for God is actually by loving other people no matter how hard it sometimes is. Maybe it’s the only way.”
This was Bell’s point…I’d love to see/hear Friel try to refute this (not that I think he would/could, because my guess is that he’d agree with it).
My guess is, at the core, Friel’s response came out of a feeling of anger/hurt that Bell would attack the traditional “bullhorn” method of evangelism (and again, that’s not really what Bell was addressing here). And even so, I find that puzzling as Friel never does defend or use that method himself in the video…
Nate
Nate,
The bible calls us to love, liking on the other hand is optional. Rob Bell does not see the bible as inerrant. I see the bible as inerrant. I don’t understand many things regarding the bible, but I am unwilling to blame the manufacturer or change the authorship. Rob Bell has difficulties understanding the bible (see below).
He views the bible as a metaphor to square personal experience.
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In fact, as the Bells describe it, after launching Mars Hill in 1999, they found themselves increasingly uncomfortable with church. “Life in the church had become so small,” Kristen says. “It had worked for me for a long time. Then it stopped working.” The Bells started questioning their assumptions about the Bible itself—”discovering the Bible as a human product,” as Rob puts it, rather than the product of divine fiat. “The Bible is still in the center for us,” Rob says, “but it’s a different kind of center. We want to embrace mystery, rather than conquer it.”
“I grew up thinking that we’ve figured out the Bible,” Kristen says, “that we knew what it means. Now I have no idea what most of it means. And yet I feel like life is big again—like life used to be black and white, and now it’s in color.”
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1Cr 15:19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
Rom 3:4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man {be found} a liar, as it is written, “THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.”
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Here’s the deal; I love Rob–I dislike Rob’s theology.
All truth and no love is brutality, but all love and no truth is hypocrisy.
AFO/OFA
Quote: “I think there’s room for both Ray Comforts and Rob Bells in the kingdom.”
Why can’t Christians understand there is more than one way to witness and share the gospel! People are all very different and you have to be flexible with your presentation of the gospel! Some need hellfire and some need gentleness. If you listen to the Holy Spirit he will guide you in your witnessing. So PLEASE stop bashing each other’s effort in Preaching the Gospel. As we become divided over pointless issues the Devil sits by and just laughs. How many denominations has the Church already splintered off into over foolishness like this. We should be united in the Gospel.
Just my Two-Cents
I am sorry some parts of this message are a bit harsh….. I have watched the way of the master show many times and every time I felt like I have heard it all before. About a year ago, I picked up Velvet Elvis, scoffing at its title, thinking great the hip emerging church at again….but I was hungry and thought I would try. Something happened, for the first time every in my life I really really really wanted to read my bible, it made sense. Understanding context, that all Christens are in it together, that God is here and not some other place, that you should struggle with the gospel and not mindless accept everything you hear, you should have questions, that the bible was originally read in communities were you would ask questions and grow together… on and on. I starting watching the noomas and found even more spiritual food, something that spoke to me as well as those around me, something of depth, and the convections were so deep that my life really started to change. I have talked to more people about God through my actions and words then ever! Calling Rob the poster boy for watering down the gospel is a grave error. He brings more then a 4 questions method of bringing people to say a prayer that leaves them to deal with God on their own. Yes God is big enough to deal with them, but that is the whole point you guys missed it, God uses relationships, God is relational and made us so. Bullhorn guy and all noomas are made for Christians…they are not salvation massages…they are as your site says teaching the found, don’t mistake this as some emergent church joke, this is restoring scripture to its context, and forcing people to wrestling with its meaning to find God’s realty in it for today. Rob’s church is ones of the fastest growing churches of present day because messages like bullhorn guy reaches people like me, who have grown up in the church, and have heard it all before. I am on a new path that will last my whole life and many will come with me as have joined the sect call Christians in more then just mindless participation. As I read on this site, it made me feel sad, it made me think the gospel has become so mechanical for many of you. I ask that you not quickly judge this video, because you are experts in the bible or dare I say law, open up and think about it more. This dr.love video doesn’t reach anybody but people that already think that way…..get it? I would welcome responses to this and invite them. I want to struggle with you to find if this response is off or if a deeper question is being posed in bullhorn guy that we all need to take a bit more seriously.
agape,
newguy
Rob never revealed the BHG dialogue, as such we can only speculate. This intentionally breeds division within the viewer, prompting him to “fill in the blanks†with insulting, hateful images –The viewer then walks away frustrated and enraged, “I can’t believe he said that†–BE REAL! (BHG) NEVER SAID ANYTHING —YOU’RE MAD ABOUT THE IMAGE YOU CREATED!. Why would Rob the peace prophet troll for this response. Maybe that’s the question we should ask?
What if BHG read scripture from a milk crate—SHOULD WE CRUCIFY HIM? What if he made someone feel uncomfortable about their sin—SHOULD WE CRUCIFY HIM?
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If you believe what you like in the gospel, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine
True True
Peace Out,
AFO/OFA
AFO/OFA thanks for your response, I think it is cool you are talking with me. I just watched both bullhorn guy and the response video on this site. I guess I am still having trouble seeing where you are coming from. What Rob says is how we love others is reflective of how much we love Christ, and that we need to spend more time caring for others, like feeding those that are hungry, listen to those that need someone to go to, and that condemning isn’t working for a lot of people. The approach on the response video is fine, but I think it is a bit off as response to the message of bullhorn guy. First off there was no bullhorn that was telling people to repent or burn it was a nice conversation face to face, which shows a lot more respect and disarms people. It also didn’t honor what Rob said to do, quickly asking people what is going on in their life and then jumping eagerly into the way of the master approved approach to lead people to Christ was not what Rob was saying when his say listen to someone. In addition it seemed like the guy in the video was really upset at Dr. love well lets just say Rob to make it easier, I mean pretty angry….whats up with that? To tell you the truth I become a bit skeptical when anybody thinks that they can sum up the entire life of Jesus into a neat little 7-minute conversation and if anybody else fails to follow that format is considered unbiblical. Further more when bringing people to God can be memorized or written on a neat limited card, I think that makes God very small, and I think people deserve to be respected and should know that there is so much more to God. All in all this seems like someone involved with this site/video is or maybe you are mad at the emerging church and have pegged this video to spew all their/your distaste for it. I think that has clouded their/your perception to learn from the nooma video bullhorn guy. If you have the time and haven’t yet, I recommend reading the questions in the book that come with the BHG video. Just do it with a fresh mind and be willing to explore why someone typed near page single-spaced to tell you it was worth it, that many have a different perspective and messages like BHG are really ministering to them….it is for my friends and I. Thoughts….?
“All in all this seems like someone involved with this site/video is or maybe you are mad at the emerging church and have pegged this video to spew all their/your distaste for it.”
There was no emotion of anger present when posting a link to this video on our site. Your rhetoric is bit unwarranted — “mad at, pegged, spew, distaste.” It has never been about a personal attack on any person, especially Rob Bell. To disagree with someone’s theology and/or method of ministry isn’t the same thing as being angry with them.
Jeff,
thanks for your posting, and your right. I was typing a bit late and for some reason thought that some of the really strong responses above were coming from someone involved with the site. Which given your sweet response and explanation does not seem to be the case. I am really thankful that there is a place that lets people just hammer it out on topics like this. Thanks for reeling me in and I look forward seeing/reading other postings and resources from your ministry.
Has it ever, even just for a slight brief moment, occurred to the majority of you guys on this site, that maybe you don’t have it all figured out and that you’re inherently practicing your religious beliefs out of a fear of “being wrong”?
That nobody (or at least only a very very very small minority of people) in the world cares remotely about what you think or believe.
Why do you try to “save” the lives of people who could think of nothing worse than spending eternity with folks like you?
Just curious.
Blzn-
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“That nobody (or at least only a very very very small minority of people) in the world cares remotely about what you think or believe.”
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= aka: remnant
The cynic employs philosophy to rationalize escape from God, but the apologist leverages philosophy to bring the nonbeliever to belief, spirit willing.
1Cr 2:16
I’m reactivating the comments section on this post due to an increased interest in the topic…
PLEASE be gracious toward one another!
Here is another response to Bell’s Nooma called “bullwhip Guy”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amovcGjQdfc
very interesting, but I don’t agree with you
Idetrorce
Rob Bell is wise, God blesses Rob Bell, trust me on this one.
Well, looks like I get to be the first poster of this new year – kinda neat that this started way back in 2006. I found this thread about four hops away from an article on another blog, and (in my extreme arrogance), thought I’d throw in my thoughts.
In my mind, this seems to be an issue of translation.
People of this generation, living in this world, are being yelled at constantly. The television tells us what to buy and how to think, our schools tell us what to believe in, our elders tell us what to value, and our Churches tell us how to live. But the problem is that nobody is willing to concede the slightest humility and say that these things are complex, and until the fullness of Christ is made complete in us, our lives will always be minor heresies. As examples, our schools have preached the infallibility of science, while we watched “scientific” conclusions be bought by corporations. Our churches have reduced morality to two hot-button issues in politics, and utterly abandoned us in actual issues that touch our lives. Our parents have taught us, as the third generation after the depression, that a life of ease and plenty should be our greatest aspiration, while we look at the world and see corruption in the high places, oppression in the low places, and scant attempts to remedy the situation. Long post made short, the people on the streets are jaded and leery of anyone espousing the next “definite thing”
Let me say one thing very briefly: Jesus is the only way to the Father. Every human breathing on the planet is sinful and subject to God’s wrath unless they turn to Jesus in faith as an atoning sacrifice for their sins. That much is definite. (I hope that satisfies my credentials for the fundies on the blog
)
But when Paul wrote to the Corinthians, he wrote in the context of a highly spiritualized culture, and he explained how their experience was off and needed to be brought into line with God’s will, but real nonetheless.
When the Hebrews got their letter, it was rife with language centered around the system of priesthood and atonement, which was familiar to them.
When Paul wrote to the Romans, their philosophical bent and intellectualism were addressed.
All this is to say that Rob’s message isn’t as offensive as it has been made out. All Rob is saying is: “This isn’t working.” People in this day and age tune out the yelling. The way we present the Gospel should start with knowing the people who will hear us. And most of the time, it’s going to be sitting down, one-on-one, and discussing (with Grace) what is observable in this world. Nobody, when asked the question of “you think this world is doing okay?” will answer in the affirmative. Everybody recognizes that this whole existence that we’re caught up in is broken in some way – a lot of the time we’ll have to acknowledge that Christians have been doing some of the breaking – but the things that the bible and Jesus said do a lot to explain why that is, and what it means, and what we should do about it. The rough part about this approach is that it takes humility – to say that yeah, for the most part, Christians have been neglecting the stuff of social justice, and all those politicians who invoke the name of God may have done some things that don’t represent Him all that well.
Oh, and when Jesus preached in the open-air to the masses, it was to a crowd of people who were there to hear him, who were able to hear him. Likening the Sermon on the Mount to yelling at people on their morning commute is just absurd.
Many thanks to anyone who took the time to read through this whole post – I hope it was worth it to some.
-m
Dear Marc,
you said…
All this is to say that Rob’s message isn’t as offensive as it…
Isn’t that the problem? Rob’s messages are never offensive and that’s why he won’t preach the gospel. Around it yes, but speak it -I don’t see it. A gospel that doesn’t include the scandal of the cross is no gospel. Jeff Fuller, the brother that started this blog (and webmaster) is a street preacher. He’s not a bigot, he’s not a hater- Jeff doesn’t sneak around abortion clinics planting C-4 in dumpsters. Nobody is advocating Rob’s caricature, but is Rob’s video helpful or fair to Jeff?? I think Jeff got thrown under the “culture bus” by Rob. Is that anyway to treat a brother??
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you said…
The way we present the Gospel should start with knowing the people who will hear us.
That’s not biblical either- it’s pragmatism.
)
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you said…
Let me say one thing very briefly: Jesus is the only way to the Father. Every human breathing on the planet is sinful and subject to God’s wrath unless they turn to Jesus in faith as an atoning sacrifice for their sins. That much is definite. (I hope that satisfies my credentials for the fundies on the blog
That is not fundie food. It’s Truth, and it’s offensive. The cross is at the center of our faith, there’s no way around it- or Him. If we round off the edges we turn into salesmen. The gospel doesn’t need to be sold, it needs to be proclaimed!
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I agree that praxis should be equal to doxy. Old-skool lacked praxy and new-skool lacks doxy. Where does a bullet land when not properly aimed? We need both or are missing the mark= sin
Marc, I pray we are not talking past each other, and I agree it is very complex. IMO Rob is preaching universalism not the gospel. Do you really think sinners (like me) want to hear the gospel?
Jeff, I have overstayed my welcome on this meta. May Jesus Christ richly bless your efforts.
Wow! All this time, and all these post debating back and forth…such anger in some of your tones. I was a convert once, and I always ignored the street preacher …I was converted by some one who took the time to be my friend. It seems that instead of bickering back and forth on this silly blog you all could go make a friend….who knows mabe you’ll convert them to christ and they can make a friend to and…well I think you get the point. It is a devine work we all atempt but God said he will use the least to confound the wise, so we are constantly going to be delivering Christ message the way we feel it’s most effective and even though we may miss the mark from time to time God honors our effort. I think he even may know what we are going to do before we do it…so he could stop it if he wanted to no? God is good all the time and Christ message will never change EVER…it’s just the delivery I think mr. bell is asking us to check. If your heart is clear then carry on and be blessed just know that there are thoes of us who would rather do it by making friends and impacting people live in that maner rather than over a loud speaker. My only real problem is the way that WOTM feels the need to call out other ministries trying to do a good work (rob bell, xxxchrch…ect). Go and do your good work (which WOTM does do) and leave others to their work. Leave the judgment to the judge. God bless you all